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rampaging-poet
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Post by rampaging-poet »

mean_liar wrote: Fourth, there's the flourides-in-the-water crowd. They don't like vaccines because the UN or the Communists or something.
Actually, if a fifteen year old article is to be believed, this one could be a valid complaint. While I haven't heard of anything like this happening recently, there's apparently evidence to suggest that the WHO has distributed vaccines with demonstratable negative effects in the past. Then again, a quick search for one of the sources listed in the article turned up nothing but other copies under different titles, so I'm not entirely sure of the validity of the source.

Even if vaccines are sometimes used as a means of population control in countries with huge birth rates, it's probably better to take the shots because the population control performed by deadly diseases is a whole lot worse.
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Post by cthulhu »

That website is one of crazy conspiracy theorists that mean_liar is complaining about.

From the same website
*
From the Shadows I: Who are Free Masons?? and what are they up to? Listen to both sides and you will definitely be !!!Shocked!!! Explore the cloaked hand that has been responsible for some of history's most important turning points. The same hand that now controls every medium, exploiting it for their sole ambition of total global domination with a one World government. Be there when we uncover the gripping truth surrounding Masonry, past and present that is exposed in this exclusive insight never beforerevealed
and
* Illuminati Quotes: The name Illuminati was the predecessor to the name "freemasonry", in order to act as a cover up. In this article selected quotes from key Illuminati leaders in the past and Freemason-Zionist leaders in the present show the deviousness of these accursed people.

Emphasis original.
Last edited by cthulhu on Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Maj »

The reasons I read about the vaccine thing was actually none of those.

I don't remember the book, but the rough argument was that there is something about vaccines (and it was suggested that it might be the large number of diseases affecting the immune system at once) that causes a number of people (especially children) to suffer encephalitis, which can - if improperly treated - lead to brain damage.

Further, because parents are told that fever and such are normal responses to getting shots, the problem goes untreated until it's been a few days, thus the damage is already done.
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Post by Juton »

mean_liar wrote: Fourth, there's the flourides-in-the-water crowd. They don't like vaccines because the UN or the Communists or something.
I found a paper a year or so back that showed a negative correlation between high fluoridation and intelligence, I can dig it up if you really care. High fluoridation being about 10 ppm in this case, while the safe limit I think is like 1.5, and this resulting in an average of a 10 point reduction in the average IQ. Some people freak out even if they ingest a little bit of 'poison', despite nicotine and aspartame being poisons and a lot of them ingesting it every day.
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Post by cthulhu »

If you going to talk about this, you need to read the York report

(Exec summary here: http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/crd/pdf/summary.pdf)

Also, Australia's study: http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/publications/sy ... h41syn.htm

Floridation at levels used in Australia reduce the level of dental cavities, may reduce the level of fractures, and doesn't cause cancer, downs syndrome, retardedness or anything else.
Last edited by cthulhu on Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by rampaging-poet »

cthulhu wrote:That website is one of crazy conspiracy theorists that mean_liar is complaining about.
Yeah, that's about what I figured. I just remembered hearing about it before and that was the first site I found the article on. Not being able to track down the articles it used as sources is also worth a couple strikes against it, but I decided to play devil's advocate and bring it up anyway. I know better than to believe everything I read on the net, thus all the qualifiers like "apparently" and "if this article is to be believed" in my last post.

I also just noticed they fail to cite any of the actual reports from the Philippines confirming that the shots used to be administered once every ten years but switched over to every couple months, so perhaps it is just a crazy conspiracy theory trying to look more credible. Then again, it's a lot more coherent than half the crazy stuff I've seen.

Crazy propaganda example summary:
A green comet was spotted in 2005. This comet foretells doom. Because this comet was spotted, Obama sucks and there was a great big oil spill. The oil spill should be nuked. Remember, the end is nigh!
Edit: Missing "fail to" in second paragraph.
Last edited by rampaging-poet on Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by name_here »

Actually, nuking the oil spill was seriously considered as a plan and is not without precedent. The rest of that is pretty loopy.
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Post by rampaging-poet »

Yes, but the reason nuking the oil spill was a valid option certainly wasn't "the green comet said so." Still, the middle of the article actually attempted to present a reasoned argument despite the rather unconnected beginning, so that may not have been the best example. I'll figure this whole posting thing out eventually.
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Post by Koumei »

Actual nuclear weapons, or just explosives? Because I can't help but wonder how healthy the radiation would be for the surrounding area, even in comparison to the oil.
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Post by mean_liar »

Maj wrote:The reasons I read about the vaccine thing was actually none of those.

I don't remember the book, but the rough argument was that there is something about vaccines (and it was suggested that it might be the large number of diseases affecting the immune system at once) that causes a number of people (especially children) to suffer encephalitis, which can - if improperly treated - lead to brain damage.

Further, because parents are told that fever and such are normal responses to getting shots, the problem goes untreated until it's been a few days, thus the damage is already done.
This is actually the first group ("you're more likely to get a horrible complication from the vaccination process than suffer a horrible outcome from the diseases they prevent"). Possibly deadly inflammations are a known side effect of some vaccines - skipping out on the vaccines eliminates that risk and replaces it with the risk that you'll suffer a preventable infection or contribute to a wider breakout.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Alright, I got one.

Whenever I ask anyone who lives here why it's so hard to get services in Virginia as opposed to anywhere else, the only answer I get is "It's a commonwealth" and a shrug. When I press them for what that means, they can't explain it.

How exactly is a commonwealth different from a state exactly?
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Post by Surgo »

Koumei wrote:Actual nuclear weapons, or just explosives? Because I can't help but wonder how healthy the radiation would be for the surrounding area, even in comparison to the oil.
Actual nuclear weapons. Without diving into detail it was posited that the nuclear blast would, through either a physical rocks-fall-down way or some other mechanism, close the well. It was also implied that the Soviet Union had done this before for a similar problem more than once.
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Post by violence in the media »

Surgo wrote:
Koumei wrote:Actual nuclear weapons, or just explosives? Because I can't help but wonder how healthy the radiation would be for the surrounding area, even in comparison to the oil.
Actual nuclear weapons. Without diving into detail it was posited that the nuclear blast would, through either a physical rocks-fall-down way or some other mechanism, close the well. It was also implied that the Soviet Union had done this before for a similar problem more than once.
Hey, when you test nearly a 1000 nukes in 4 decades of cold war, Russian pragmatism dictates that you're bound to start trying to find a practical use for them every now and again.
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Post by RobbyPants »

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:Alright, I got one.

Whenever I ask anyone who lives here why it's so hard to get services in Virginia as opposed to anywhere else, the only answer I get is "It's a commonwealth" and a shrug. When I press them for what that means, they can't explain it.

How exactly is a commonwealth different from a state exactly?
As near as I can tell, it doesn't really matter. From what I gather from the wiki article*, the term is largely used to establish themselves separately from the colony originally founded by the British. The idea being, while the commonwealth of Virginia had the same land and name as to colony, they wanted to establish that they were created for and by the people.

Other than that, I don't know that it actually matters.



Edit:
* Here's the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_(U.S._state)

Evidently, it breaks the BBCode.
Last edited by RobbyPants on Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by name_here »

Surgo wrote:
Koumei wrote:Actual nuclear weapons, or just explosives? Because I can't help but wonder how healthy the radiation would be for the surrounding area, even in comparison to the oil.
Actual nuclear weapons. Without diving into detail it was posited that the nuclear blast would, through either a physical rocks-fall-down way or some other mechanism, close the well. It was also implied that the Soviet Union had done this before for a similar problem more than once.
There was a CNN (IIRC) clip that contained an interview with one of the guys who had been involved in the russian ones. The idea was to bury a low-yield nuke next to the well, then set it off to compress the well shut. I dunno if it's ever been done underwater, though. Part of the reason it was rejected was reasons of moral high ground when doing nuclear weaponry control.
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Post by cthulhu »

mean_liar wrote:
Maj wrote:The reasons I read about the vaccine thing was actually none of those.

I don't remember the book, but the rough argument was that there is something about vaccines (and it was suggested that it might be the large number of diseases affecting the immune system at once) that causes a number of people (especially children) to suffer encephalitis, which can - if improperly treated - lead to brain damage.

Further, because parents are told that fever and such are normal responses to getting shots, the problem goes untreated until it's been a few days, thus the damage is already done.
This is actually the first group ("you're more likely to get a horrible complication from the vaccination process than suffer a horrible outcome from the diseases they prevent"). Possibly deadly inflammations are a known side effect of some vaccines - skipping out on the vaccines eliminates that risk and replaces it with the risk that you'll suffer a preventable infection or contribute to a wider breakout.
The funny part is that the most dangerous ones are generally only issued if you're going to go do something absurdly dangerous, like roll around in Laotian rice paddies and thus run the risk of a variety of run infections.

Otherwise the risk of death or serious injury from the vaccine is much, much lower than your chance of catching and dying to the actual illness.
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Post by Sashi »

You're really ascribing a lot more logic to the human thought process than goes on most of the time. Many people would honestly rather give their child a 1/1M chance of dieing of a disease than a 1/1G of dieing of complications from the vaccine for that disease just because they think giving the vaccine makes them responsible for the death from complications, while dieing from the disease is just something that happens to "other people". Other ridiculous illogic is the gambler's fallacy (1/10 of the kids they know have died from the vaccine, therefore it's a 1/10 chance of dieing from the vaccine), or pure crazytalk (Vaccines are useless poison that causes autism instead of just, you know, a saline solution scam).

It doesn't make any sense, but if you ask people why they didn't throw the lever, they will say it's because throwing it makes them responsible for the one person's death, while doing nothing doesn't make them responsible for the two.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Random question:

What does it take to start your own business aside from capital?

A local game store has said they are willing to sell pre-written adventures from local people, and my group is interested in getting into that.

Nothing big, I don't expect to make any money from this and we probably won't do it at all due to lack of startup capital. I'm just curious.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:What does it take to start your own business aside from capital?
The true, but not-terribly-helpful answer is time, know-how and any appropriate permits and licenses.

For something like writing you do yourself, it is highly unlikely that you have local ordinances, permits or licenses to worry about (as opposed to say operating a daycare, running a chemical plant or pushing a hot dog cart). So long as nobody sues you for libel all you likely need to worry about are estimated tax payments And if you can generate enough income from writing game adventures for that to be an issue, I will happily quit my day job to join your endeavor.

There are an astonishingly large number of "small businesses" that are really just one person doing a side job for a client instead of for a boss.
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Post by Maj »

CA wrote:What does it take to start your own business aside from capital?
That depends on the business, really. If you're the single person (or small group) doing something fun as a hobby, your costs can be whatever your internet connection requires and some time. When Ess lost his job and was unable to get a new one, he started writing from home. While he's not making a ton of money, he's paying the bills. Since we already had computers and a good internet connection, his business cost is essentially zero.

I don't know how your FLGS intends to have these adventures packaged and marketed (Do you have to print them off and have them stapled/bound/boxed/whatever? Will they support a blog if you start one and let adventures be printed from the site? Are they going to be used as a demo in a gaming day?), but there is a good chance that you won't have to invest very much at all, if any.
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Post by mean_liar »

cthulhu wrote:The funny part is that the most dangerous ones are generally only issued if you're going to go do something absurdly dangerous, like roll around in Laotian rice paddies and thus run the risk of a variety of run infections.

Otherwise the risk of death or serious injury from the vaccine is much, much lower than your chance of catching and dying to the actual illness.
This is not correct.

For example, an American is more likely to suffer a horrid complication from the DTAP vaccine than to acquire diptheria.

Vaccines work on a societal level by preventing outbreaks. In some cases this is effective enough that yes, the vaccines are causing more direct harm than the diseases they are otherwise preventing.

Stopping vaccinations generally leads to some kind of outbreak, but the effects of those outbreaks are very context-dependent. Countries with quality medical systems and high participation rates don't suffer tremendously from such outbreaks and even then, a lot of such correlations (no vaccines = deadly outbreak) aren't really based on robust data.

For example, the Irish measles outbreak in 2000 led to three deaths (1/530) but resulted from something like 5 years of vaccination rates even lower than the normally-low Irish vaccination rates; the MMR vaccine has something around a 1/40M mortality rate. Still, since then, Ireland continues to have low vaccination rates and sporadic outbreaks, with no deaths this past two years despite yet another outbreak.

You can find a similar example in pertussis. Sweden has a pretty high incidence rate with very low mortality, since they banned pertussis vaccination for around 20 years until they had an acellular version. Meanwhile, in the US, where you're supposed to be immunized and there's less vigilance, outbreaks have killed a handful of people of the last few years. In the developing world, hundreds of thousands of people (predominantly children) die from pertussis every year.
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Post by Maj »

mean liar wrote:For example, an American is more likely to suffer a horrid complication from the DTAP vaccine than to acquire diptheria.
Didn't they stop giving out the oral polio vaccine because it caused too many cases of polio?
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Post by mean_liar »

How much constitutes "too many cases" is a function of epidemiology. In areas with serious polio troubles, the oral vaccine is still used as you're still better off with the oral vaccine's lifelong immunity despite its known side effects; in areas where polio is not likely, the injected version is used.
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Post by Roy »

Koumei wrote:Right, first thing is gaming related but not so massive as to require its own thread:

What's the deal with point-buy (or possibly just 32PB)? It seems the Den uses the assumption of Elite Array for any theoretical thing, which is fair enough I suppose, but we don't actually use it in games. Everywhere else, from games I play IRL to forum games to the old WotC CO boards, assume a point-buy, usually 32.
Since when? If anyone mentions elite array at all here, it's to say how big of a barrel of cocks it sucks. If anything it standard it is 32 PB, because it fucks over MAD (read: weak) characters less than lower PB, and definitely more than rolling.

Now on some fail forum like Paizo you might see people trying to justify their existence with 14 prime stats, but not here.
Also I hate randomness in general - I build characters so that there's the smallest chance of the RNG fucking them, why the fuck would I want the RNG fucking me right at the very beginning?
Exactly. Rolling is basically saying "Hey, let's see what I'm allowed to play!"

Fuck that noise. If I want to play something, then god damnit I'm playing that thing. If the dice tell me I can't, no problem. I'll just skip that game and find another. There will always be more. But ultimately it's the DM's fault. He says "Ok, you can't play here." and I say "Ok." and go play elsewhere. If he stopped being retarded though, then I wouldn't have such arbitrary measures blocking me.

Now it's quite possible he'll turn retarded later, and do something like be a Sundertard but at least the entry barrier is out of the way.
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Post by Koumei »

Roy wrote: Since when? If anyone mentions elite array at all here, it's to say how big of a barrel of cocks it sucks.
As I said, no-one uses it for actual games, just the basic "So look, your Wizard is wandering in with, even in Elite Array, a 15 Int, obviously, so he's bringing X to the table just for existing" or "Assume monsters with big stats were made with the Elite Array, to tone them down a bit when played as PCs" and so on.
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